Mind the (Age) Gap

by Guest Blogger, Lena West & Lipsticking Editor, Yvonne DiVita

When I received the survey invitation from Diane Danielson of the Downtown Women's Club (DWC), I knew I would particpate in the survey because I am a member of DWC myself and hey, I support my own.

Little did I know what kinds of undercurrent emotions would come up for me the further I got into the survey. By question 4, I felt compelled to pick up the phone and call Diane directly. It hit home that hard.

The survey, "Women in the Workplace: Talkin 'bout My Generation", supports some research that Diane is doing for a magazine article she's writing about what Gen Y, Gen X and Boomer businesswomen really think about each other and some of the issues like "opting out", "mommy wars", "glass ceilings", "gender gap", etc.

I won't spill all the beans, I'll let you take the survey for yourself, by clicking here but, here are some of the things that came up for me:

* I feel that the women who are a generation ahead of me (Boomers) have literally slammed the executive suite door behind them. With the exception of a few women who have been very helpful in my life and career, almost every Boomer I've encountered has felt threatened by me or has gone out of her way to try to make my life hell.

* I'm tired of taking up the slack for my counterparts who have children. When I was a full-time, on-site consultant, I would invariably be asked to work extra hours because a woman in my department had some sort of committment or emergency with her children. When I mentioned this to management, I was told that we all need to be team players. And, hey, I'm all for that but, when did the office Mom's ever run interference for me so that I could get home early and prep for my hot date?

Now, I'm no idiot, I know there's a difference between a sick kid and a hot date but, you get my point. That said, I'm the child of a single mother and I know how hard it is when you DO have a partner - much less when you don't. I should also mention that the Moms in our company are highly respected (as anyone should be) and work in a very understanding, supportive environment.

* I wish the generation behind me (Gen Y) would stop expecting everything to fall in their lap and get out and hustle to improve their careers. Again, there are exceptions to this but, this is what I see more often than not. Gen Y'ers need to realize that they are going to need to have some "dirt under their fingernails" to impress me. Stop resting on your sheepskin!

The DWC survey was more than just a survey for me. It helped me to think long and hard about the relationships I've developed - and not developed - over the years and what they really mean to me and my career. Thanks, Diane.

I have more things to say about this survey but, I'll let the Editor of this blog, Yvonne, chime in with her feedback...

Ooohhh... this is going to be fun. Yvonne here, with some of MY thoughts on Diane's survey.

First, the survey was totally focused on younger generations. The boomers (I'm a boomer) were not represented well in the questions. It was clear they did not talk to a real boomer when formulating the questions.

I am going to talk to Lena's points, cause I took the survey a few days ago and didn't save my answers. I was disappointed that I couldn't answer properly, on several of the questions, because the answers I wanted to give weren't there, and the dialogue box provided did not allow me to type more than a few words into it. But, I think Diane will be fixing that.

Before I talk to Lena's points - well, specifically to ONE point, the one about her picking up the slack for women with children - I want to say I hope those of you who can, will take this survey and help Diane out. She will likely report it on the website, and or blog, and help us all gain better understanding into this still volatile issue. And, I want to go on the record as saying that I adore all women, (not THAT way!), but I relate most to younger women. Maybe that's cause I envy their energy and can-do attitude.

But, I have to respond to one of Lena's answers: the one where she starts, "I'm tired of taking up the slack for my counterparts who have children..."

Hmmm... so, Lena, should we all just stop having children? Or, should we all rely totally on daycare to raise our children? Should working Moms give up their parental rights because women who choose not to have children don't want to 'fill in' when we have to leave for a soccer game, a sick child, or a school meeting? If we don't do it - who will? Did it ever occur to you that by allowing us the time to tend to our children properly, that you're helping create a better future for all of us?

Could it be that by allowing us to tend to the next generation, and the next generation, you're making sure those kids will be contributing members of the society you hope to retire into? Stop and think: those are the kids who will be running for office in the not-so-distant future - and will have a lot of control over your world - when you are my age. Shouldn't you be concerned over who is taking care of them? Shouldn't it be their Mom?

Now, I don't think parents, male or female, should abuse the privilege of having flexible work hours, or a workplace that grants them time off to care for their kids. And, I think women in those workplaces who choose not to have kids should have a perk associated with the extra time they spend covering for the Moms - like extra time off once a month, or accumulating an extra vacation day or even a bonus after they reach a certain amount of time put in, over and above what they would normally have put in. Until that can happen - complaining about it just makes everyone's life unpleasant.

I guess I think we ladies, Moms and not Moms, should be thinking hard about how to make it work - to everyone's advantage. Child-rearing will forever be a woman's job (even though men are more involved these days, this is a duty that most often falls on the Mom), so... women should work together, Moms or not, to see that the children in America have a good home, enough to eat, and lots of love and attention.

It's not about us. It's about them - tomorrow's children. Consider your time covering for the Moms in your workplace as your donation to a better tomorrow - for all. And, just so it's obvious, the Moms already did that - by giving birth.

Lena?

Comments

[Lena West]

Yvonne:

Actually, I'm not childless. I don't have biological children of my own but, we've had custody of two of my three nephews since they were 5 and 7 respectively.

The eldest is now in college and the youngest is still in high school.

Oh, yeah, if the kids take over the virtual team's life? It still goes back to having the right people on the bus. Our interviewing process is LENGTHY. We hire slow and fire fast. So, we make sure that we know the type of person we're bringing on board. However, I'm willing to be surprised.

I'm not heartless monster or anything :) - children need to be protected. Yes, they are the future. It is part of my personal belief system that all humans are equal, is all. As a person of color, I believe that if we start saying that one part of our World community is more important - in this case children - then importance across the scale becomes a matter of subjectivity - which inevitably leads to other types feelings of importance...generally, not good.

My experience as a person of color in this World makes me see things through a different prism.

-Lena

[Yvonne DiVita]

Lena, I so love your passion! Spoken like a true childless person. (I'm smiling... because it's so like folks without kids to tell those of us with kids how poorly we raised them - mind you, I know you aren't talking directly to me, nor I directly to you.)

In the kids taking over comment, I meant taking over the virtual worker's life - not yours! I am quite confident you are in charge at your office! LOL

But, if your virtual workers have kids... it's not hard to imagine the kids demanding their time due to sickness or soccer games or the like - just as if they were in a regular office. IF they can't finish a report or something, because they tended to their children, I expect you would replace them? Accountability, and all? Which is understandable... except... sometimes kids' needs are unpredictable.

I like that you feel we're all equally important to 'Mother' Earth. I haven't looked at things quite that way - and it's definitely making me thing.

But, I don't agree wholeheartedly. I still put the kids above the adults - they need us now, and when I'm really, really old... I'll need them. It's just a fact of like that they will be the ones in charge in 25 years. Like it or not.

[Marilyn]

Sigh. Someone has to have the children. They are the next generation. Their rearing is going to have a large, long-term effect on everyone's quality of life. All of us, even those who are childless, have a duty to support and encourage those who undertake the arduous task of raising the next generation. Believe me, working long hours is MUCH easier than taking care of a sick child, or even a well one. My own child is raised now. I've been a single mom and a married one. My life is much easier now, with the luxury of being able to work long hours if I want.

[Lena West]

Yvonne:

Wow, this is GREAT dialogue.

You said: "But, civilization and society in general, will be judged on how well it treated both its children and its animals. THEY are the innocents. As such, their wellfare is more important than yours."

I don't agree with this. Civilization will be judged on how well they treat the planet, people and animals - in that order. And, no one's welfare is more important than anyone elses. Children or not. Everyone is equally important.

As for the idea that our virtual teams children would "take over"? Impossible. Not in my World. I make the rules here and I can tell you that we have more checks and balances than most brick-and-mortar companies.

It all comes down to the development and maintenance of a supportive culture and that boils down to solid leadership and effective processes/systems - two things that I'm VERY skilled at providing.

When personnel challenges crop up it's NEVER about the people. It's always about the process that got them hired in the first place. Never ask, "What's wrong with this person?" Always ask, "What's wrong with our hiring procedures that this person got in?"

So, I don't ever have to worry about "firing" someone. Know why? Because they wouldn't be on the bus in the first place.

-Lena

[Diane Danielson]

Couple of thoughts on all this. And yes, I have yet to do a survey where we've managed to accommodate everyone's position. Which in some sense shows that it's silly to even pretend to lump all women together under a single title of "women's issues."

One quick impression I got from my peek at the preliminary responses is that we seem to be a group of "tribes" who don't often cross paths. Moms who work are too busy to meet moms who don't. Single women travel in completely different circles than their married colleagues. And it appears that the generations don't intermix.

This last point is a personal pet peeve as I've always wondered why women have "age and experience" requirements for their organizations, yet the men could always bring along their interns and proteges.

I do agree that the focus re: children, should be a "children's or family issue" and not a "woman's issue." But, by letting corporate america run the government, we have less support for our children than in some much less developed countries.

But, lest everyone think that the survey focuses only on working moms, one of the more surprising findings so far is that most women do not believe they are or will be affected by the gender gap. And a larger amount than I thought say there is no glass ceiling. I haven't figured out yet which generation said what, but that should be interesting!

[Lyn Chamberlin]

I, for one, am both exhilerated and discouraged by the evolution of women's opportunities. Excited because so many new and intriging solutions seems to present themselves every day; discouraged because it's always a question of 'one step forward/two steps back.' I've been down alot of paths--high-flying career pre-kids, high-flying career with small children, figuring it all out while solo-parenting,caring for aging parents, etc., and now the luxury of time and space to put all that energy into my work. This is not an all or nothing at all question--each of us struggles in our own way, every day, to do the right thing by ourselves, by the people that we love and care for, for the world at large. Being very exacting by nature, I am learning now not to judge but to embrace the endless way that women--of all ages, stages, life experiences, find the way forward for themselves.

[Mary Schmidt]

Great discussion - and valid points by all. One thing that is missing, however, in all the discussion re children is - the men. Of course, there are many single Moms who cannot depend on the fathers.

While I believe everyone (including, yes, the men) should work in a caring, humane environment - the reality is that some things just have to get done. Women who feel entitled to have babies and then get special treatment for every single Mommy activity and still have the same career opportunities make it very difficult for other women.

A good friend of mine has a toddler, works 30 hours a week (producing over 40 hours of work) is working on her MBA and still manages to cook real meals, go skiing, be active in the community, read books and generally enjoy life. The secret? She's organized and she doesn't let her dearly beloved child run her life. (No, She and her husband aren't wealthy - at least not in the financial sense. But, they do have a great work ethic and put quality of life above quantity of things.)

Lena's management style of "Just get the work done, please" is really what it comes down to. When I had staff I'd tell them that I didn't care when they came in, when they left, or where they worked. That way we didn't have to worry about shortchanging anybody (but, yes, the parents have to take some personal responsibility and accountability for planning, even before the they decide to have children.)

As for making the world a better place - aboslutely! We should all be working on that - in everything from global warming to the local homeless shelter. But, improving the world and building a better future doesn't automatically and directly translate into a single woman working killer hours so a Mom can go to a soccer game.

[Yvonne DiVita]

Diane and Lena, thanks for chiming in.

I'd be interested in talking with the boomer women who helped you craft the survey. How 'boomerish' are they? I really felt that the survey neglected to allow me my input - but, that may be a factor of creating a survey. Surveys are difficult to build - I know that.

For the issue on children and women without kids picking up the slack - I'm sorry. You ladies have a point, yes. Management SHOULD find a way to compensate those who have to cover for others. But, civilization and society in general, will be judged on how well it treated both its children and its animals. THEY are the innocents. As such, their wellfare is more important than yours.

Now, that includes not only love and nurturing, food and shelter - it includes discipline and education and learning by example. So, your experiences are sad - and likely happening more often than I can think. But, before I became a Mom, and even now, when my kids are grown, the act of covering for a Mom who has to leave to tend to her children is something I feel proud to do - because it means the children are safe.

When we start thinking about the children - not the Moms, not the time, not the work - we can step back and say, "How do we fix this problem?" I think we fix it by banding together as women - and forcing management to build in support for the Moms and the workers who will cover for them if/when they have to leave.

As for the unorganized among us - that's often a learned skill. I was very organized and on-time and not running around crazy, until I started this business. I was far more organized when I was home with 3 kids. Working and raising a family is exhausting work - so, it's easy to see why working Moms are unorganized. However, they can be taught. There's an opportunity for someone.

I think, Lena, that your solution - the virtual company - is a great one. But, even then - you HAVE to be organized, or your virtual workers' kids will take over and you'll be picking up the slack, yet again. (so, do you fire them? hire more? with kids or without?)

[Diane Danielson]

Hi -

Love, love, love the dialogue on this. That was the point of doing the survey and what will be subsequently an article (and yes, you two will both be interviewed).

Background Note - we did pass it by boomers, and heard that they felt well-represented. Although the original assignment from PINK was to write it from the Y'ers point of view, we are now adding more balance, hence the inclusion of X and Boomers (and even the Silent Generation). In fact --- I might highlight the X's who seem to be caught in the middle.

As a single mom, I'll delve into that issue a bit. I have often heard the complaint that single women resent that they have to pick up the slack (hence why we put that in there). I did see that happen and personally always resented the fact that women were all treated as if they planned on having a baby. As we're seeing, women may plan on having a baby, and it doesn't happen, or they may not ever plan to have a baby, but regardless they are still hit with a "potential mommy penalty" (hmmm. that's good, may have to include that in the article.)

But what really gets my blood boiling is the women who abuse their part-time or mommy status (sort of what Lena refers too). it ruins it for the rest of us. I personally stepped out of a cushy management position because as a single mom I felt that I couldn't put in the hours I expected my staff too. (They said they knew I paid my dues, and it would be o.k., but I knew that wouldn't last long). So, I took a job where I wouldn't have to manage people. Unfortunately, I hit a worse glass ceiling because the new president of the company wanted to know why a single mom would even care about partnership track.

One preliminary finding I can share is that the media clearly makes more of the "mommy wars" than what women really feel or see.

THanks for getting the dialogue flowing. Maybe the DWC and Lip-Sticking can do a survey later this year. I'd be interested in what the generations think of various marketing campaigns. I recall sitting on a focus group for a financial services firm, where the boomers thought the material was fine; and the two gen x'ers in the room (myself included) found it condescending and even offensive. Would love to have had a few Y'ers in the room, but they were still probably in high school.

[Lena West]

Yvonne:

I totally see your point. It's a bit altruistic for me but, I see it.

I didn't opt to have childen so, why should I have to be inconvenienced? That's one of the reasons that I've opted out of motherhood so far. Why should I be subjected to long hours because someone else chose to have kids? That makes no sense to me.

It's great to think about this 'We Are the World' scenario and certainly there's room for that but I must be honest and tell you that when I was asked to stay late or come in early, the fact that I'm helping to shape the future was not the first thought in my mind. At least I'm honest.

I guess my question is, why can't mothers plan better? Everyone I know who has children are running around like chickens - and these are people whom I love and respect!

So, I asked two of my friends who have children yet are very organized, what the deal is. And, both Annette AND Jody told me that many Moms are very unorganized and sure emergencies happen but not all the time and it takes focus and organization.

Listen, I don't know...all I know is that single, childless people shouldn't have to work late to compensate for people who have kids. What can I say? Don't have kids if you can't handle what comes with it.

And, as you said...once in a while is good and if happens more than that, I would expect to be compensated in some way. Extra time, cash, a spa visit...something.

That's why I'm glad I've built a virtual organization. Colleen, Kim, Jody, Tony and Ron can do whatever the heck they want. Their kids can have as many soccer games as they want. You can work at 2:00am - and in fact, Colleen is in Australia. Just get the work done, please.

Is that a crime?

-Lena